TMIT 35: Don’t Tell Me To Calm Down – Turning Anger into Insight as a Family

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Welcome to the most important
thing.

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I'm Danielle.
And I'm Greg, and together we're

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exploring how to rob French
museums.

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Oh yeah, so cool.
The culture.

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And bad, of course.
Of organized crime?

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No.
We are exploring family,

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leadership and how to build
culture at home.

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That's right, Yes, we are.
But the the jewel heist is a

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little bit on trend because we
are talking more about the less

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polished side of family culture.
Yeah, and in particular anger

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today.
What if I go to emotions, but

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something I don't necessarily
love talking about?

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You mean parents get angry
headline, I thought.

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It was just me.
Headline.

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Yeah, so today we want to talk
about anger and specifically how

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to bring it into light within
our family culture.

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Admittedly, I have not
traditionally had the best

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response to anger in our family
for sure.

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Like when one of our children
goes to anger, I tend to, you

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know, when researching this
episode, I'll now call it

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suppress the anger.
And I'm just like, OK, count to

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10, calm down or go to your
room, right?

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Go to your room and calm down.
And for all the parenting books

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that I've read and all the
psychology classes that I've

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taken, I've never really felt
like I have a goal with anger.

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Yeah.
Well, it's very layered.

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And as we talked about with the
kids this weekend, anger is not

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typically the emotion that is
coming out.

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Right.
Yeah.

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So should we get into the
research?

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I think so.
Great.

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So one of the reasons why we
wanted to talk about this today

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is because we don't necessarily
know what to do with it, but we

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know that it is something that
comes up so frequently in our

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home.
So we did some research and

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particularly leaning on the work
of Brené Brown in her not latest

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book anymore in Atlas of the
Heart.

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Brene considers anger to be an
indicator emotion.

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And she has this great chart
that we can put up on the

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screen, which is, you know, when
we're feeling anger, what are

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we?
What's actually underneath of

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it?
And it's things like fear or

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guilt or jealousy or rejection
and loneliness.

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And that even though anger shows
up a ton, it's usually because

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that's what the ego is most
comfortable with, as opposed to

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feeling some of these even less
fun emotions.

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And in reading this, it
definitely hit me that I am so

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quick to anger and it is a way
easier thing for me.

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It just it's, it's so much on
the surface.

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I think that it's it is
something that comes out

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frequently when my boundaries
have been crossed.

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And that's the other piece of
this.

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It's that anger is like this
Sentinel guarding you and

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letting you know that a boundary
has been crossed.

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Yes.
And letting not just you,

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letting everyone around you and
that's why it is so readily

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available is because oftentimes
I find it can be somewhat

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effective in communicating that
you don't want to be messed with

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right now.
Yeah.

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The the irony of that though, is
that yes, it's effective in

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communicating.
I'll say to my children that I

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that a boundary has been crossed
that I don't want to be a mess

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with right now, but I end up
having to console them.

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Totally.
Everyone is aware that like the

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energy changes, right?
It's a way to communicate that

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like you're up up to here or I'm
up to here and that I need

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support.
We even have a, a good system

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right now where when one of us
gets angry with the child, the

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others kind of swoops in.
And so it's like, tag me out.

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So that's kind of the
interesting component with anger

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is it signifies, and I'm sure
this is a very primal emotion

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for a reason because other
people around you need to know

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like, hey, don't mess with me.
I'm not in a space where I can

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be messed with.
It's almost like back to our you

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can't teach someone in a
performative state.

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You can't you, you cannot reason
with somebody in in a state of

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anger.
And so don't try.

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Right.
And that is why I really take

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issue with so much of the kind
of anger management techniques

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that at least I have, I have
experienced or witnessed over

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the past decade or so, which is
count to 10, take a walk.

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And it's like, I can say this
the same with anxiety too.

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It's that when I am in that
activated state, please do not

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tell me to calm down, right?
That is not going to help.

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Isn't there some like old trope
about like telling a woman to

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calm down or something like that
to where it's like that is like

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the last thing that especially
a.

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Woman wants to never a good
idea, for sure.

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It's never a good idea.
So when it comes to anger, I

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think that there are two
important goals.

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And this is based on the
research that I've done through

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Jungian psychology and Brene
Brown's research as well.

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The first is to contain anger,
not suppress it, not let it get

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out of control.
But this idea of containment is

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really one that says I have this
feeling.

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This feeling does not have me.
And so I think key to that is

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really normalizing anger and
recognizing it when it's at A3

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or A4, not a 10 or 11.
When it's at a 10 or 11, you're

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in full on deeply feeling kid
meltdown mode, etcetera.

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But when it comes to how we can
allow space for anger within our

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family culture, I think
normalizing anger as one of the

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most common human emotions and
accepting it and creating space

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within our family for it.
Not saying go into your room

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until you cool off, Not saying
go count to 10 or take a walk,

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but to really saying, oh,
there's anger here.

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How are we?
How are you going to deal with

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that feeling before it
escalates?

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Right?
The second goal when it comes to

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anger is to really turn anger
into insight.

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And what I mean by that is to
recognize that anger is an

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indicator emotion.
And so when we are starting to

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feel anger, key starting to feel
anger, we can recognize, hey,

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this is normal and get curious.
I've even heard it said like get

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incredibly suspicious about
what's underneath and using it

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as an opportunity to be honest
with ourselves and with our

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family members about what's
really going on, right?

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So is it fear?
Is it guilt?

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Is it a need for personal space?
Right.

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And so how can we shift from how
do we stop your anger to what is

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your anger trying to tell us
about what you value and what

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you need?
Absolutely.

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And so I think though, that at
the outset of our conversation

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about anger, it really makes
sense for us to reflect as the

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leaders of our family on our own
relationship with anger and how

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we want to model it.
And so I would love to hear from

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you, how you think about it and
what insights you can bring to

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our family culture.
For sure.

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You know, something just struck
me as we're having this

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conversation, and I didn't
necessarily prepare my thoughts

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for this part, but I would be
remiss if I didn't talk about

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it, which is a boy's fear of his
mother's anger.

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Not that my mother was a very
angry person, but as all mothers

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do when she would get angry, it
was something that I really felt

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like I caused.
And there was disappointment or,

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you know, reduction of trust or,
you know, something serious that

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would gnaw at me.
And as a boy, I found that when

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I was living in conflict with my
mother's values, the easiest way

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to make sure she didn't get
angry is for her not to know

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about it.
So as it relates to that feeling

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of not wanting to disappoint my
mother and also wanting to, you

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know, do things that I feel like
I want to do that might make her

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angry, over the years and into
adulthood, I have had to examine

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that, I'll call it fear that I
have of a woman's anger and make

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amends almost with myself and
heal myself for the times when I

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circumvented my mom's anger by
not telling her what was really

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going on.
Forgive yourself.

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And forgiving myself and
forgiving that younger version

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of myself.
And it's only since it's only

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once I was able to do that, that
I was able to be in a healthy

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relationship where I know that I
can show up both with the truth

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and be loved for it, even if
it's not aligned with the values

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of someone else of you or of,
you know, my kids or you know,

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of my peers.
Like it's, this is just a thing.

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And I, it's something that I've
noticed.

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This is a very common issue in
in in marriages.

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So it's just something that I
wanted to point out.

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And the reason this showed up is
because you were talking about

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your anger, and I was like, do I
ever restrict what I'm going to

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do so that you don't get angry,
even if it's something that I

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want to do?
Interesting.

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And I'm like, oh, do I ever do
that?

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I think that I'm very cautious
when I know that you're already

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upset with something, anything,
just like it's and, and I would

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say vice versa.
Like.

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But I don't think that I am ever
circumventing.

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I live in line with my values
and I can communicate why I do

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things and that's been the
healing that I've had to do.

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Sure.
If that makes sense.

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Yeah.
I don't think that you're alone

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in being afraid of a woman's
rage.

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Sure, yeah.
Well, what I did reflect on and

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have been reflecting on since
being a dad is how my dad showed

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up with anger in in the
household and compared to my

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friend's parents, very little,
very, very little.

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He probably was also guilty of
this fear of a woman's wrath.

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And I'm, I know that he did
things so that, you know, where

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he was like, oh, just don't tell
your mother, right?

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Little things, little things and
big things.

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To avoid anger.
To avoid anger, to avoid

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whatever it is.
Yeah, right.

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But for me, once I became a, a,
a dad and our kids became like

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sentient, I showed up with quite
a bit of anger.

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And I did this almost on purpose
because I, I reflected and I was

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like, I was kind of a brat and
had my dad like, put his foot

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down a little bit and I had a
little bit of fear of him.

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Maybe I would have been a little
coloring, you know, more within

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the lines.
And so when our kids were like,

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you know, three and four, I
remember showing up with a bunch

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of anger towards them when they
would not comply.

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Sure, like raised voice
strongly.

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Yeah, moving into the.
Room like yeah, exactly.

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And you know it, it worked in
the sense that like there was

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some fear there of certain
behaviors that they would

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ratchet down if I was around.
But it didn't work in the sense

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that, as you pointed out,
somebody usually you would have

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to comfort them because, and not
just one of them, all of them,

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because I was angry at one of
them.

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Sure.
Well, I feel like we got into

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this very interesting
dysfunctional setup,

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particularly when the kids were
younger, which was my boundaries

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would get crossed.
I wouldn't say anything about it

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because I was sleepless or
postpart what, you know, pick

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your thing, just not capable,
right?

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And so you would come in to
protect me.

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And so it was almost like that
anger would transfer from me.

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You would watch my boundaries be
crossed by the children and I

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would be overwhelmed.
Maybe I'd start to like tear up

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or something.
Something would happen to the

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point where you knew that that
what was happening was I was, I

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was being violated in some way,
like of course, not

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intentionally by children, but
like I was, I was cracking up a

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little, right?
And so you would come in because

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I didn't present and I didn't
hold my boundaries.

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You would come in trying to
assert for me, but it would kind

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of backfire because then the
kids would be afraid of you and

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they would need consoling from
me.

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And meanwhile I'm already like,
totally tapped.

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Out.
And I I think, you know, what

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was it?
It was probably Hunter was

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around 5:00 when I finally
started saying to you, like,

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right, I need to fight my own
battles.

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Like I so appreciate you
protecting me and and standing

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up for me.
But I recognize that this is

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dysfunctional.
You know, this is I need to be

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able to assert myself with the
children and hold my boundaries

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with them so that you don't
become the bad guy because you

227
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:21,440
want to stand.
Yeah.

228
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,320
And and honestly, like what I
learned most from those

229
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:31,520
experiences is that anger
doesn't create understanding, it

230
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,960
just delays compassion.
Say more about that.

231
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,360
When you get angry at someone
you love, you need to repair.

232
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,400
I need to repair with my
daughter that I was yelling at.

233
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:49,040
And so it's not creating any
understanding in the moment.

234
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,160
It's just delaying the
compassion that I need to have

235
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,680
for her and the conversation
that we need to actually have

236
00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:57,200
until later.
Got it.

237
00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,640
OK, Because when I think about
it, I think a lot about anger

238
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:05,360
transference.
Like if I yell at Hunter, she is

239
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,720
10 times more likely to then go
and yell at Jader Maverick in

240
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:14,520
the same day, often using the
same words and they tend to be

241
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,880
controlling words, right?
Like why did you do that?

242
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:19,800
Don't you know that I care about
that thing?

243
00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,440
You know, like very.
And so I think about I saw this

244
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,880
beautiful painting by Richard
Sargent that's called that I'll

245
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,360
we'll put up on the screen
called anger transference.

246
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,560
But what is essentially
happening is that the boss yells

247
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,640
at the man who then comes home
and yells at his wife, who then

248
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,680
goes and yells at her child.
And then the child yells at the

249
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,440
cat.
And it's like, whose anger is it

250
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,280
really?
And so this, I think there's

251
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:53,520
also this idea with anger that
we can easily make it normalized

252
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,240
in an, in a negative way, if you
will, that like lashing out at

253
00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:02,760
someone is seen as OK here
because mommy and daddy do it as

254
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,880
the leaders of our family.
And so I do think that our

255
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:14,040
primary goal is to learn to
contain anger and not suppress

256
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,800
it, like acknowledge that we are
feeling angry, but to catch it

257
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,880
in that kind of three to four
out of 10 zone when it is still

258
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:28,960
able to be a feeling that I have
as opposed to a a feeling that

259
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:30,840
has me.
Absolutely.

260
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,400
And I think that's probably one
of my biggest takeaways when I

261
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,840
reflect on my anger is that I'm
usually causing it

262
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,320
inadvertently.
Recently it's been really tough

263
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:47,400
'cause, as you know, I hurt
myself in the gym maybe six

264
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,720
months ago.
Not dramatically, but something

265
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:52,560
that was gnawing at me.
And I've been going to physical

266
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:57,680
therapy for it.
And when I am in PT, you know,

267
00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,120
I, I'm, it's great because I'm
recovering and I'm doing these

268
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,200
exercises, but I'm not able to
throw super heavy weights

269
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,599
around.
And when I can't throw super

270
00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:07,560
heavy weights around, I feel
more flat.

271
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,560
And when I feel more flat, I'm
drinking more coffee or I'm

272
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,240
taking more supplements so that
I can feel up.

273
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:21,280
And that is a really unhealthy
spiral that I just recognized is

274
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,440
why I can feel like I've got a
shorter fuse.

275
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:31,120
I picked up a book recently by
Terry Real called I Don't Want

276
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:34,240
to Talk About It, overcoming the
secret legacy of male

277
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,240
depression.
And this was really eye opening

278
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,920
for me, especially around one
big point, which is the covert

279
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,760
depression in men.
And in men, depression doesn't

280
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,520
show up predominantly as
sadness.

281
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:53,640
It shows up as flatness.
And that finally clicked with me

282
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:59,080
where I'm like, wow, I'm like so
hypersensitive to this flatness

283
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:03,800
that I need to get out of it.
But it's a, it's an epidemic

284
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:09,280
apparently of men that are, you
know, workaholics or irritated

285
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,000
or withdrawing emotionally from
their families.

286
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,560
And it's not sadness.
It's the flatness underneath

287
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,560
that is creating this.
Do you think that does that come

288
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,280
from like a suppression of
emotions, the flatness?

289
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:26,520
So it comes from a few things.
So it's the inherited script is

290
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,880
first and foremost.
So this is society saying that

291
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,200
anger is the only safe emotion
for men, for men and everything

292
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,360
else, sadness, fear, shame is
off limits.

293
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,200
So anger becomes the mask for
vulnerability.

294
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:45,160
So that's number one, OK #2 is
the shame to anger flip?

295
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,520
So this is kind of similar to
the painting that you describe

296
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,320
where when men feel powerless or
one down, they often flip one up

297
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,800
through anger to escape shame.
The fastest way to feel powerful

298
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,400
again is anger.
Yeah, absolutely.

299
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:04,640
Yeah, I can really see that.
Yeah, there's also this element

300
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:09,440
of missing repair, where most
men never witnessed repair after

301
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,400
anger, only explosion or
silence.

302
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,960
And so This is why we really
need to model repair with our

303
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,720
kids to break that pattern.
Yeah, I think that that's one

304
00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:23,480
thing that generationally we as
parents and as leaders of our

305
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,600
families have really gotten
right, which is the idea of

306
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,280
repair.
Like I can tell you boy or girl

307
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,440
growing up, like I don't think
many of us saw repair in action.

308
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,280
And so if there was a lot of
rupture, if there, if people

309
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:41,160
were given to anger in your
home, chances are you you didn't

310
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,920
see much repair.
That's right and then the one

311
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,080
that I hope that our generation
is working on that I'm seeing in

312
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,120
some of my peers, I'm seeing in
this House, I'm seeing in the

313
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:54,080
way that our kids are taught at
school and I want to see more of

314
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,360
is redefining what strength
means in men.

315
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,400
That strength can be
vulnerability, right?

316
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:06,040
That emotional accountability to
to be able to say like I still

317
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:10,160
struggle with this where?
I get defensive instead of

318
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,000
saying, you know what, I lost
it.

319
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,440
I'm sorry.
I know my my face.

320
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,400
I.
Know 'cause I know, I know.

321
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,520
You really do, and it's.
It's because that wasn't, I

322
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,160
mean, you know, my back story,
Yes.

323
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,560
Think about how little that was
modeled in my house.

324
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,680
Sure.
Sure, there was a a big lack of

325
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,400
accountability with your dad,
I'd say.

326
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,320
Yeah, so to be able to say I
lost it and, you know, here, let

327
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,080
me make it right or, you know,
let me learn from this.

328
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,320
Let me journal about this.
Let me talk about, you know, why

329
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,640
that really happened.
And let's go back to Brene's

330
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,840
anger she'll and figure out what
emotion was actually

331
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,720
underpinning it.
Like that's the work to be done.

332
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,720
So men's covert depression is
something I can really relate to

333
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,560
and it's I think the first step
is awareness there.

334
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,600
Well, that's great that you've
started that journey then.

335
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:09,240
Totally.
I, I got to say that this book,

336
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:14,800
if you pick it up, there's a lot
of gruesome, really sad stories.

337
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,760
And so it was very hard for me.
Yeah, you got to be in a good

338
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:19,680
space.
Yeah, in the right space, I

339
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,240
guess.
Totally, totally.

340
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:27,760
But but it's, I mean, this is
probably one of the things that

341
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:32,280
I'm most passionate about now
for because of my diagnosis,

342
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:37,320
because of, because of like, you
know, I understand that flatness

343
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,920
can mean depression.
And now it's like this re

344
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,000
redefinition of depression in
men shows up very differently

345
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,360
from depression in women.
Don't you think that it goes

346
00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:48,640
back to like the first
antidepressant commercials on

347
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,280
TV, whatever that was 20 years
ago, where you'd have like the

348
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,880
black cloud over the person that
would be the commercial?

349
00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,080
And I think what you're saying
is, unlike so much research,

350
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,720
though, which is normally done
on white males, it sounds like

351
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,520
the script that they've written
for antidepressants has really

352
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,400
been around the female
experience where it's true

353
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,120
sadness, this dark cloud, the
rain and the thunderstorms, and

354
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:17,200
that that is not necessarily how
depression shows up in men.

355
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,560
Absolutely.
And then as I'm learning in a

356
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,840
second in a separate book and we
could talk about this another

357
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,160
time, a lot of this is likely
environmental and bacterial.

358
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,120
So interesting.
To be continued.

359
00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:32,440
To be continued.
OK, yeah, sounds good.

360
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,200
Well, I also think about just
because we have children, but

361
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,720
also because we were once little
girls and little boys, kind of

362
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,600
how anger is socialized
differently with boys and girls.

363
00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:47,760
And I think that you mentioned
that anger was the only emotion

364
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,600
that is allowed in men.
And I still see it today that,

365
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:57,880
you know, even at our beautiful
preschool, our girls never came

366
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:02,680
home with a sword or a ninja
star that the teachers have made

367
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,080
for them.
But Mavericks come home with

368
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,680
dozens, right?
And so I don't want to confuse

369
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:12,960
anger and aggression, but I do
think that our boys, even still

370
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:18,960
today, anger is not seen as
transgressive as it is within

371
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:24,200
girls.
And I think that's also why I

372
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,320
can speak for myself and I know,
but I it's also why mom rage is

373
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:34,720
a thing because we, we were
never taught how to.

374
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,480
It was never allowed for us to
be angry.

375
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,240
And so when it does come out,
it's kind of haphazard and messy

376
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,720
and we fumble with it and it
often explodes like a volcano,

377
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,400
right.
And so I can just say that for

378
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:57,040
me, mom rage definitely has been
a challenge postpartum.

379
00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:00,360
I'm finding now that I've sleep
more because everybody sleeps

380
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:04,960
more like it is as you probably
see in like my my body is kind

381
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,200
of re regulating just in time
for perimenopause.

382
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,720
Things are things are better,
but the combination of the

383
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,520
postpartum hormones and when you
have little people, you're you

384
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,520
have no boundaries.
You are boundary lists.

385
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,440
I think it's a perfect setup for
rage, especially when as a

386
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:30,600
child, little girls are not
socialized at all to deal with

387
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,520
anger and to accept anger as a
normal emotion.

388
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,640
So I would just say with regards
to anger, there's a lot there

389
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,200
like from the time we were
little, right?

390
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,080
So there's there is this
awareness that has to happen as

391
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,400
leaders of our family in the way
that we deal with anger.

392
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,240
And then how do we actually
want, like what do we want the

393
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,320
culture of anger to be really in
our home, right?

394
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,960
And I think that we've really
started to put the pieces

395
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,280
together over the past week or
so and three takeaways that

396
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,080
we've come up with.
So the first is modeling

397
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,720
containment and curiosity around
anger.

398
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,360
So as we've talked about like it
is about having the feeling, not

399
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:15,880
the feeling having us, but
normalizing anger to the point

400
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,400
that it is such a common go to
emotion.

401
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,040
Let's start talking about it
when it's at a three or a four

402
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,720
because that's when we can
really speak to what boundary

403
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,360
has been crossed.
What's coming up in you once

404
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:33,000
it's at a 10 or 11 that is out
of family, culture, world?

405
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,440
Yeah, leave that to the gurus.
That's right.

406
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,160
Exactly.
So yeah, so containment being

407
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,320
the goal.
And then the 2nd, and this is

408
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,520
like my favorite family culture
hack for anything is talk about

409
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:50,040
it when nobody's angry, right?
So, so this week at family

410
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,480
meeting, Greg's like smiling big
because he was really happy

411
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,080
about how it all came together.
We talked about anger.

412
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,280
We showed the kids Brene Brown's
image, and we talked about how

413
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,840
anger is often this indicator
emotion, not the thing that is

414
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,440
really going on.
And I think they grasped it

415
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,200
quite quickly, right?
And so the next day, they

416
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,280
already even started saying
like, oh, Maverick's not really

417
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:14,880
angry.
He's feeling helpless.

418
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,840
So ideally, we would want our
children or us to say, Maverick,

419
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,880
what's really going on?
Not you're feeling helpless.

420
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,480
But it's a start, right?
Because they're starting to feel

421
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,040
it in them.
And then actually Hunter had the

422
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,880
idea since she did game at
family meeting this week, is she

423
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,000
said, I don't want to do a game.
I want to draw our anger.

424
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,720
I may have put that in her ear,
but she really picked up on it,

425
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,160
right?
Like she's the one that, you

426
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:42,960
know, decided that that's what
we were going to do.

427
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,840
And so we each drew our anger
and that was really fun.

428
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,760
So cool, so cool.
And everybody's was a little bit

429
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,000
different, but this is one that
I highly encourage those at home

430
00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:01,160
to consider experimenting with
because it was easy and really

431
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,320
informative.
So everybody got a chance to

432
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:06,280
draw and then share a little bit
about their anger.

433
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,920
And then also Greg turned each
one into a quick Sora video,

434
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,160
which were they were hilarious.
But again, just this

435
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,000
normalization, right?
I think it goes back to so many

436
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,560
of the things that we talked
about here, which is normalizing

437
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:25,200
these tougher emotions and
storytelling, you know, really

438
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,880
the power of story, which is
actually the third take away.

439
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:36,360
And so I love this idea that so
many, so many amazing things

440
00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:40,080
have happened throughout history
because someone got angry.

441
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:42,800
I think about Rosa Parks on the
bus, right?

442
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,320
Hers wasn't a big rage full
event.

443
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:50,040
It was a quiet no, but it was a
firm no or more appropriate.

444
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,440
In our family.
These days, I think about what

445
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,680
happened with Taylor Swift and
Scooter Braun and how she said

446
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,480
absolutely not.
You will not take my music.

447
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,240
I will re record every single
one of those songs and call it

448
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,920
Taylor's version.
I mean, that took dedication,

449
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:12,800
persistence and anger to fuel
that project.

450
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,000
Yeah.
Right.

451
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,960
Don't cross a scorned woman.
Yes, and don't cross a scorned

452
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,000
woman with money.
Absolutely.

453
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:20,960
No.
But I think that this is such A

454
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,000
and this is one that, you know,
in, in talking to the girls in

455
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,440
particular over the course of
the past few days, they've loved

456
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,600
this idea that, like, my anger
can create change.

457
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,840
Yeah.
So like, I don't have to stop

458
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,440
with being angry and then
figuring out that it made me

459
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,000
feel guilt.
Right.

460
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,440
Right.
I can actually take it and use

461
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:44,240
it to fuel change.
Yeah, no, it's, it's just

462
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,920
awesome.
The like the week over week

463
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,520
vocabulary that everyone has in
this house as a result of this

464
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,040
family meeting exercise.
And now being able to just like

465
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,240
have the conversation about what
emotion is actually going on.

466
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,600
I think is so much of the work
because we're putting this in a

467
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,840
container and containerizing
through real conversation and

468
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,440
getting, getting down and and
into the hole with each of our

469
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,200
kids or them with us, right.
And instead of just accepting

470
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,400
like, oh, you're mad, you need
to go, you know, sit, sit in the

471
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,760
corner.
Yeah, so I mean another plug for

472
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,320
family meetings, right?
In all honesty, it is our number

473
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:29,280
one piece of advice for building
family culture because it is, it

474
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:35,200
is the container, It is the
forum to share learnings and to

475
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,960
dialogue around positive things
like joy and excellence and

476
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,720
compassion, but also some of
these murkier things like envy

477
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,880
and anger, which are also so
normal and human and deserve to

478
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,360
be brought into the light for
sure.

479
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,520
Right.
And then, you know, the more

480
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,440
that we bring it into the light,
the more that we can normalize

481
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,360
them and the less power they
have over us.

482
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,480
I mean, they say that tragedy
plus time equals comedy.

483
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,960
And I just think about that all
the time when I think about

484
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,200
these negative emotions, it's
like if we bring them into the

485
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,840
light, soon enough we're
laughing about it and that

486
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,120
ultimately like, can we get to
laughter, which we did in some

487
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,040
of our AI videos about anger.
I mean, I looked like a crazy

488
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,720
person in my drawing and then
you guys made a completely

489
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,080
ridiculous video about me like
which we can also, I'm happy to

490
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:31,080
share it a ridiculous video, but
while everybody was laughing, I

491
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,600
was like, I feel seen.
Yeah, that's what you said.

492
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:34,880
Yeah.
You know, like that's exactly.

493
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,640
What, Like this is me, but it's
not that big of a deal.

494
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,160
No, exactly.
Like that's the thing, 'cause

495
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:41,160
it's just not that big of a
deal.

496
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,560
Yeah, OK, great.
So just to recap, the two goals

497
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:49,440
when it comes to anger are to
model and learn how to contain

498
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,600
it, not suppress it but not let
it take over you, and then

499
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,960
secondly, to turn anger into
insight.

500
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,960
So instead of stopping the
anger, what is the anger trying

501
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,760
to show us?
Is there something you value

502
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,920
here?
Is there a feeling coming up?

503
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,960
Has a boundary been crossed?
Or as you've said before, do I

504
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,960
actually need to relax a
boundary?

505
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,600
Because my first instinct has
been anger, but actually

506
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,360
something has something has
changed in me and I have more

507
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,800
capacity today.
Yeah, for.

508
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:24,800
Sure, right.
But it's it's that Sentinel, it

509
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,120
is that indicator emotion to get
curious.

510
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,320
Yeah, right.
Yep.

511
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,240
The way that we're feeling in
our bodies is so important to

512
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,040
the conversation, I'm realizing,
and how that can fuel me being

513
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,600
irritated or angry.
And so, you know, I think that's

514
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,880
another tool to give our our
children as well.

515
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:56,440
You know, like when emotions are
running really high, like let's

516
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,600
all just go for a bike ride.
Yeah, I think that is the kind

517
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,720
of next step in normalizing.
Yeah.

518
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,600
It's such a common emotion.
It comes up so frequently.

519
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,280
How can we do something to
support ourselves through it?

520
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,040
Absolutely.
Cool.

521
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,320
I love this stuff.
I think this is the line of

522
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,680
questioning that I want to go
down next when we have a another

523
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,000
extraordinary family that we're
interviewing.

524
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,160
Check out the Cliff Weitzman
episode if you haven't.

525
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,600
There's a lot of great stories
there, a lot of great stories of

526
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,360
overcoming adversity and family
as a team together.

527
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,720
And I think if I had done if we
had done this episode, some of

528
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,080
the questions I would have asked
Cliff also are how did your

529
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,000
parents support you when these
emotions came up?

530
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,680
Or how did, how did your family
handle, you know, someone

531
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:57,440
strong, like kind of
gravitational force of anger in

532
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,880
the household?
Like how did you, did you just

533
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:01,640
do what you wanted to and hide
it?

534
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:06,080
Or like, did you, you know, and,
and I think that I look, I'm

535
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,360
looking for the modeling of
that.

536
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,720
I didn't have that modeling so.
Yeah, absolutely.

537
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,120
And I think that's why, you
know, we've really shifted from

538
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,920
just these more polished side,
which naturally occurred first,

539
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,520
to now as we think about
creating this culture.

540
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,240
We're really thinking about, you
know, culture isn't just how you

541
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,160
show up on your best days.
It's also how you deal with the

542
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:33,880
more challenging yet very human
behaviors like anger and envy

543
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,800
when they show up as well for
sure.

544
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,280
Yeah, this is great for more to
come.

545
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:39,200
Cool.
Yep.

546
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:40,440
Thanks everybody.
Thanks.

547
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,080
Everyone love you goosy.
Love you goosy.

548
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,720
Hey guys, if you're still here,
you're definitely our kind of

549
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,920
person.
Thanks for spending this time

550
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:50,520
with us on The Most Important
Thing.

551
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,440
If this episode resonated with
you, we'd love for you to follow

552
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,800
us wherever you get your
podcasts and share it with

553
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,560
someone else.
Building family culture on

554
00:33:58,560 --> 00:33:59,120
purpose.